Dr. Megan Lee discusses the relationship between nutrition and mental health, specifically focusing on the impact of diet on mood and depressive symptoms. She explains that a healthy dietary pattern, high in whole foods and plant-based foods, is protective against the risk of depressive symptoms. However, she notes that the relationship between diet and mental health is complex and bidirectional, with social connection playing a crucial role. Dr. Lee emphasizes the importance of social support and social connection in improving mental health outcomes. She also highlights the need for further research to understand the clinical significance of nutrition in mental health treatment.

Takeaways

• A healthy dietary pattern, high in whole foods and plant-based foods, is protective against the risk of depressive symptoms.
• The relationship between diet and mental health is complex and bidirectional, with social connection playing a crucial role.
• Social support and social connection are important factors in improving mental health outcomes.
• Further research is needed to understand the clinical significance of nutrition in mental health treatment.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background

03:04 The Shift in Psychology Education

06:26 The Benefits of a Healthy Dietary Pattern

08:35 The Blue Zones and Healthy Diets

10:52 The Role of Meat in the Diet

12:59 The Impact of Diet on Depression

15:20 The Relationship Between Diet and Mental Health

17:29 The Importance of Social Connection

20:34 The Role of Diet Quality in Mental Health

23:23 The Protective Role of Social Support

25:13 The Impact of Social Connection on Food and Mood

28:29 The Importance of Social Connection in the Next Wave of Therapy

Keywords: nutrition, mental health, diet, mood, depressive symptoms, whole foods, plant-based diet, social connection, social support

This is unedited.

Dr Peta Stapleton (00:01.314)
Hello, Megan, and thank you for joining me here on the fourth wave in therapy. I appreciate, particularly for an academic point of view, that our time is precious. So I'm so glad that you've agreed to have this conversation.

Dr Megan Lee (00:14.473)
Thank you so much for having me.

Dr Peta Stapleton (00:16.928)
My absolute pleasure, because this is such an area that I want to dive deep into. Your research area and certainly your academic kind of studies have very much been centered in some of that area of nutrition, mental health, mood, that kind of space. We might kind of umbrella call that nutritional psychiatry or something similar, mind and mood, that kind of thing. What prompted you to want to go into that

field from an academic point of view? Was there something that happened in your life? Why were you interested in that?

Dr Megan Lee (00:55.625)
Yeah, so I was very interested in food and mood from the beginning because I've had lived experience and seen family members of mine go to a GP, say I'm feeling sad or I'm not feeling very well, and then immediately be prescribed with antidepressant medications or other medications for...

that didn't work for them, had terrible side effects and probably weren't helping at all. And I always thought like, there's gotta be another way, there's gotta be more reasons for depression than just a serotonin imbalance in somebody's brain. So that was kind of initially what prompted me to be interested in the field. And then when I did my psychology honors at Central Queensland University, I...

had just had a baby and I was very, very interested in how to keep him healthy through nutrition. And through that, my interest in psychology and my interest in nutrition kind of melded together. And that's how I ended up the food mood doctor kind of.

Dr Peta Stapleton (02:07.968)
Yes, and we have all of your details below. So people can absolutely go and follow all of your work and see all that wisdom that you do share, which I absolutely benefit from my own life following all of your work as well, which I think, you know, really is the point of why I wanted to have you here as part of this fourth wave in therapy approach. And what we talk about on this podcast, because even in the traditional psychology field, I would say the last

you know, maybe five or six years, we really now teach in and I'm glad you mentioned serotonin and repression in that area from a diagnostic disorder point of view, we say to our students that we're teaching, hey, it's not enough anymore to just do a self report measure or do a clinical interview and say this person meets the criteria for something like depression without

having, obviously, experts investigate at maybe a gut microbiome level or definitely things like what's your food and your diet like, because there's so much research that has been kind of published and building in that, you know, like trans fats and mood and gut microbiome and depression. And like we're for the first time saying it's not enough for us to just say,

Yes, that person meets criteria for major depressive disorder, go and take, you know, have someone prescribed you an antidepressant. If we find out that their whole diet is filled with maybe takeaway meals, that, you know, certain oils are used and things like that. And I just want to know what's your opinion, because you're the absolute expert. Like we're really at the fringes here kind of going, just don't assume and make sure they go and have, I don't know, a dietician or a nutritionist or a naturopath.

investigate just so that we can understand the wider picture. Like what is the potential here for what's happening with diet?

Dr Megan Lee (04:07.797)
So what's really interesting is when I started my PhD in 2017, I assumed before I read the literature that people were already looking at diet and mental health. I just thought it was already a burgeoning field, people had done it for years, but what I found out was that we had known for a very long time in science that a healthy dietary pattern that is full of

fresh fruit, veg, nuts, seeds, legumes, whole grains and water was beneficial for reducing the risk of chronic illnesses and lifestyle illnesses like cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome and obesity. But only in the last kind of 15 years and at the time in 2017, it had only been for a decade. The people were like, well, doesn't nutrition also impact our mental health? And I was blown away by that.

The very first paper on diet and depression was in 2008 by Professor Felice Jacker. And I was so shocked that no one had linked the two. And it goes back to that kind of biomedical model where the brain and the body are separate entities and they never, they never meet. But what we know since, so in the last kind of 15 to nearly 20 years now, we're starting to build a body of evidence that

Yeah, we actually can link nutrition and mental health and that healthy dietary pattern high in those whole food plants is actually protective against the risk of depressive symptoms and other mental health disorders are starting to be looked at as well like anxiety and the neurodevelopmental disorders and things like that.

Dr Peta Stapleton (05:58.306)
So tell us a little bit in case anyone's interested, because you just mentioned a really good point. It's not just that eating a poor diet will have an impact on your mental health, but eating, I don't know how we're describing these other types of diet, whether it falls into the Mediterranean category or something, but you said whole foods, has a protective element. So what is the research? What have the studies shown? How have they been kind of conducted?

And what are the groups that have been investigated to know that not only is it good to eat these diets, but it will protect you against maybe the probability of actually suffering one of these disorders.

Dr Megan Lee (06:39.569)
a really important distinction in our field is that it's preventative or a protective role rather than once you are diagnosed with major depressive disorder that does nothing. That's what we we find now but it's for people to prevent getting the symptoms of depression or getting the symptoms of anxiety nutrition plays a quite a good role in that. So that's a really important thing so we never say get off your antidepressant medications just start eating well.

because that is very dangerous to tell people, but it's also like not backed by the evidence, by the scientific evidence. But what we do know is that healthy dietary patterns, in particular, you talk about the Mediterranean diet, and it is known in science to be the best dietary pattern for all things, physical, mental health, all things. And one of the key elements of the Mediterranean dietary pattern is that they eat a diet high in plant foods,

They eat a lot more legumes than we do in our Western dietary pattern. And they also have other protective factors in their life, like they're highly social compared to the West. They eat socially, they like music and reaching across each other and they cook together and they grow produce together. And it's this big family celebration. So they have that as well. they have

more physically active lives than we do as well. So they do jobs that are more physically active. But the role of their diet is really important as well. Other places that have a high plant intake, particularly the five blue zones, which is really interesting, all five of the blue zones are vegetarian dietary patterns, which is really interesting with very small.

Dr Peta Stapleton (08:27.916)
Could we just, in case anyone's new to this topic, define blue zones? Like, what do you mean by that? I know, but can you define it?

Dr Megan Lee (08:34.453)
So the five blue zones are areas in the world, the five areas in the world that have the most centenarians, so people over a hundred years old. And not only does it impact their mortality, the getting to an older age, but it's also their lives are better. They have less illness, they have less dental problems and all five of the blue zones. So I think it's, you might be able to help me. There's one in Japan.

There's Lindaloma in California, which is really interesting, who have a very high population of seven day Adventists who are vegetarian. There's Sardinia. There's one in Greece. And I can't remember the other one, but there's these five regions.

Dr Peta Stapleton (09:15.532)
Yes.

Dr Megan Lee (09:23.743)
There's these five regions that have these really amazing health outcomes and they are all highly plant -based diets. And the research that we are finding in diet and mental health, and it wasn't something that I was looking for in my PhD for the four years, I was just looking for what the best dietary pattern was for the risk of depression. We did find the Mediterranean diet was particularly the best one, but...

vegetarian diets were really good. The DASH diet, which is the dietary approaches to stop hypertension, which is really interesting because it is, it was based on research on plant only diets, so vegetarian diets, but to make it more palatable to a Western population to reduce hypertension, they added a small amount of meat, which is really quite interesting in itself. So looking at these dietary patterns and

What I found at the end of my PhD after four years of investigating this, did reviews, I did longitudinal studies on Australian women and focus groups talking to people about their experiences with food and mood. If I could break my PhD down into three words, it would be eat more plants. And you don't have to be a vegetarian or a vegan for this research to help you. You can be omnivore. I'm an omnivore. I eat meat.

Dr Peta Stapleton (10:41.56)
I knew you'd tell it.

Dr Megan Lee (10:51.879)
I eat a plant -based diet though, so I increase my intake of plants because they're protective and I decrease my intake of meat. But it does mean that you have to eliminate meat altogether.

Dr Peta Stapleton (11:02.624)
And even the Mediterranean diet does include meat, doesn't it? Like high in obviously the fish kind of products as well, but they include meat. It's just in smaller amounts.

Dr Megan Lee (11:14.037)
Yeah, what I love about the Mediterranean dietary pattern, they have a moderate amount of fish intake, but the meat that they do eat is considered to be a seasoning, like salt, pepper, lemon, rather than the main star of the dish. And that's kind of what I base my life on. Like it's there for flavor, it's there to enhance the meal, but it's not like the star of the meal. It's not 80 % of your plate with the veggies on the side. It's the veggies.

big plate of veggies, big salads, things like that, and the meat complements that.

Dr Peta Stapleton (11:45.804)
Yeah, absolutely. I remember a dietitian a long time ago, and I don't know if this is still current research, always talked about that the meat should never be any bigger than kind of your own size fist. So like everyone's hand sizes are different, obviously, but even for a, you know, six foot tall husband of mine, like his fist wouldn't be that big if that was to be a steak. It would be quite a small, maybe eye fillet or something, not like a big team bone.

because that was sort of the rule of thumb that they used to do.

Dr Megan Lee (12:15.189)
It's about 150 grams is the Australian dietary guideline recommendations for red meat three times a week for physical health. But when this was looked at by Felice Jacquet in her PhD, which is really interesting, they looked at the 150 milligrams of red meat three times a week for mental health and depressive risk. And they found this really cool U -shaped

Dr Peta Stapleton (12:22.977)
Yeah.

Dr Megan Lee (12:44.342)
relationship where the 150 milligrams was the perfect spot for reduced risk of depression. Any lower than that and any higher than that, depression risk was increased. Yeah.

Dr Peta Stapleton (12:59.34)
Yeah, that's really interesting. And we might put a link to that first paper in case anyone's curious to see where this started as well, as well as all of your papers, Megan. You mentioned something really interesting five minutes ago, which was if someone is already suffering some of the symptoms, if not full criteria for depression, you said, and correct me if I'm wrong, then the plant -based diet and maybe switching to that doesn't actually have much of an impact. Is that correct?

Dr Megan Lee (13:28.981)
Yep, absolutely. Although, and there's always a like a difference to the rule. Felice Jacker did do her SMILES trial, which is the very first randomized controlled trial looking at changing from the Western dietary pattern, which is high in ultra processed, refined and sugary foods to the Mediterranean dietary pattern higher in those plant foods. She took like 56 people.

who were already diagnosed with depressive disorder. And she split them into two groups. The first group changed their diet to the Mediterranean dietary pattern and had nutrition counseling sessions. Whereas the other group had like a social, like a social control so that they were getting the same exposure to the researchers. So that wasn't impacting the depression. And after, I think it was 12 weeks, they found

that the people in the Mediterranean dietary pattern change group had, I think it was 33 % of them no longer were experiencing depressive symptoms so much that they were no longer diatomizable. So in comparison to 8 % of the control group. So we say that because the evidence is not strong enough to say that it works as a treatment yet, but.

That RCT was then replicated by Parletta in 2017 and then Jessica Bays did it on young men in 2022 and then Francis did it in another population as well and all four of those papers all have very almost identical findings which is really cool. So maybe we just need more research.

Dr Peta Stapleton (15:20.084)
always the case. And I guess it's something not to ignore either, that it's definitely emerging. And if someone, you know, perhaps was listening in and maybe found themselves kind of prone to sort of lower mood, that even them to explore this a little bit further, and even to kind of look at, you know, we have got the flip side, haven't we in research that shows diets high in takeaway foods that perhaps are high in trans fats, low in plant based foods.

and veggies and things like that definitely are having an impact on mood there as well. Even my food craving trials that we've run for 15 odd years, the amount of people that were doing interventions, our tapping technique on soft drink and even just that level of sugar as in I'm not talking one glass a day, I'm talking two to four litres a day these people were drinking and wanting to target in our interventions. Like that level of sugar.

has to have some impact on the microbiome.

Dr Megan Lee (16:20.981)
Absolutely, and what the tricky thing is for us in the in the nutritional psychiatry field is that this relationship is very bi -directional, so it's really hard to tease apart whether it's the ultra -processed, sugary soft drinks and food that we are bombarded with every day, and if that's causing the depressive symptoms or whether it is being depressed makes you want to eat those foods more.

So it's like kind of like a vicious cycle really. It's the foods, like the last thing that you want to do when you're depressed and you're in major depressive disorder is eat a salad, right? You don't want to eat a salad. You don't want to go out in the sun. You don't want to be physically active. You socially retreat and all of these things, not just nutrition, but all of these things are the key elements of protecting against depressive symptoms. And they're all the things that you do.

when you are depressed. So there's like this vicious cycle, bidirectional relationship, which is really hard to tease out unless you do those randomized control trials or look at longitudinal patterns across time.

Dr Peta Stapleton (17:29.27)
Yeah, and I know that research is continuing to happen. So it's a bit of a watch this space. But what about other dietary patterns? If someone was listening in and saying, look, you know, mostly Mediterranean, but, you know, perhaps leaning more towards vegan. What's the research around removing other kind of products from diets such as dairy or animal based kind of products that maybe people that subscribe to a vegan lifestyle avoid?

Is there an impact there and has research started to unpack if there's any relationship there as to protective or otherwise with mood disorders?

Dr Megan Lee (18:06.069)
Yeah, so what's really interesting is when I finished my PhD in 2022, I assumed again, I'm very good at assuming what the research says before reading it. So I assumed that after my big discovery that you should eat more plants for increasing your mood and decreasing your risk of depressive symptoms, I assumed that vegans and vegetarians would then therefore be the healthiest in mental health out of everybody. But when I dived into the literature, there's about nine

systematic reviews currently on vegan and vegetarian populations and depression, I found that they actually have a higher rate of depression in the general population. And I was like, what? They're eating a diet that's protective against depressive symptoms. And that's what we found, but they actually have higher rates. And I hypothesize and I am currently trying researching and examining all these different areas.

because I believe that it is not about the diet at all. I think it's about caring for animals, environment, and they're socially excluded. Like they go to a barbecue and they're like, good on you vegetarian sausage. Like they get picked on. So it's like, and social exclusion is a big part of depression. So I'm looking at that at the moment, but it's just very interesting that

Dr Peta Stapleton (19:19.607)
Yeah.

Dr Peta Stapleton (19:23.468)
Here's your muffins.

Dr Megan Lee (19:35.913)
The current research and those kind of eight or nine systematic reviews that are currently published in this field make this ideological jump from vegans and vegetarians have a higher rate of depressive symptoms than the general population is because of their diet without actually measuring diet quality. So the primary studies that they've all reviewed don't do that. So that's what I do. I do that. And what we find is also very interesting is that when we look at vegan and vegetarian populations, you've got two groups.

One who eats a very high whole foods diet full of plants and the other that eats a very high junk food vegan diet with no plants or very limited plants and lots of ultra processed meat replacement things or pastries and cakes and fill their diet with that. So if you're excluding meat in your diet, you have to replace that with something and then you replace that with refined carbohydrate.

Dr Peta Stapleton (20:17.174)
Yeah. Wow. Yep.

Dr Megan Lee (20:33.439)
So what we found is that when we looked at those two groups, those with the high quality diets had decreased risk of depression and those with the low quality diets had an increased risk of depression, which was exactly what I found in the general population in my PhD.

Dr Peta Stapleton (20:47.554)
So, and that's a really interesting point because I have colleagues who are in that nerotropathy space and things like that. And they've always sort of said to me, look, the patients they've had come in with other kinds of health issues and obviously seeking some sort of naturopath kind of intervention were vegetarians, but that had the poorer quality diets. And they said they were the patients that they worked with that had the most health issues, but the...

The real moderator there was the quality of diet. wasn't that they were vegetarian. They were swapping out and replacing perhaps, know, proteins might give us a sense of fullness and kind of lasting energy. And because that was missing, they had to replace that with bulk and that might have been refined carbohydrates. So it sounds like it's a very similar picture from the research.

Dr Megan Lee (21:37.717)
That's really interesting because that was another thing that came out of my PhD, a realization that I came across, was that all of these people out there, and we know because we're on the social media circuit, and there's millions of things said about nutrition. Keto diets, paleo diets, carnivore diets, vegan diets, vegetarian diets, like all these different diets, Mediterranean diets, are helpful for physical and mental health, and lots of people are spruiking lots of different things.

But all of these diets all have something in common. They all eliminate or reduce ultra processed foods. And I believe that's the reason that they all have these amazing outcomes. And they can say that is because of that. And so if we can get any population, no matter how you like to eat, and everyone likes to eat differently, if you like an all meat diet or if you like an all plant diet or if you like

Dr Peta Stapleton (22:16.599)
Yeah.

Dr Megan Lee (22:37.735)
eating just fat and meat, that's fine. Because the main predictor is ultra processed foods, right? It's that sugar sweet beverages, it's the ultra processed foods that are actually kind of the problem.

Dr Peta Stapleton (22:54.518)
Yeah, yeah, which I want to perhaps kind of tie this whole conversation up with something that emerges as a health psychologist in our field that's protective for health conditions, which I think is showing up in the research for mood and food as well. And that is the notion of social support that by and large, any psychological intervention that might be done for health conditions, certainly things that are stress related illnesses.

Social support, when anyone's going through even standard medical care, adds this extra layer. obviously, depending on what condition you're looking at, shows above and beyond medical intervention only or psychological therapies only. You add social support, social connection, you just get this extra layer. And it sounds like even, know, docos that have been done on the blue zones and studies that you've mentioned today.

when there seems to be this shared element of food preparation and food sharing and meal come together and things like that, am I right in saying it adds another protective layer? And I'm curious, would that be above and beyond what you're eating? So is there something there in the research?

Dr Megan Lee (24:13.129)
And it's really interesting that you say that because every study that I've done since the beginning of my PhD, so longitudinal studies, I've done cross -sectional studies, is like surveys at one point in time, focus group studies actually asking people about their experiences with food and mood, all of these different types of studies that I have done, I've always had an element of social connection measure. So I usually use the social connectedness scale and just see.

the relationship between social connection, food and mood. And what I found is that social connection is always the highest predictor of depressive symptoms. In fact, in one of the studies that we did on people who had been vegetarian for their entire lives, we found that social connection actually mediated the relationship between diet and depression, which means that without social connection and being socially connected while you're eating, the relationship did not exist anymore.

Dr Peta Stapleton (25:11.49)
Yeah, well, yeah.

Dr Megan Lee (25:12.429)
it's exactly what we were talking about before, even in the focus group studies that I did, social connection was one of the highest themes that was talked about. Like, I remember one participant saying to me, like, I could eat a kale salad at my desk and I won't feel as well as if I go down into the lunchroom and have a hamburger with my colleagues. And we even talked about it with the vegan and vegetarians, like,

that social exclusion from their diet could potentially be part of this problem. So social connection, in my opinion, is the glue that's holding food and mood together.

Dr Peta Stapleton (25:53.622)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, you even said it with that social exclusion at the barbecue that the vegan might bring their kind of alternative meat product or something else. And just that even though they might be there, if there is some level of kind of exclusion based on diet, the impact there on mood, e .g. depressive symptoms or feeling outside the group, you know, at that real evolutionary level that if you're not

in the group and you're outside it then yeah it's unsafe at some level and loneliness we know is being researched and explored as having the same cardiovascular effects on the heart as smoking did 50 odd years ago loneliness you know and the impact of the neuro hormones that are released when someone feels lonely is having a cardiovascular

Dr Megan Lee (26:43.893)
And there's no coincidence that the healthiest dietary pattern in the world, the Mediterranean dietary pattern, they are highly social. And it's all around eating and food and growing and cooking. And they're so proud of the produce from their region. Like you go there and they're like, look at my tomatoes. This is from the farm down the road. it's, yeah, it's that social element. So is it that, is it the diet or is it like a combination of it all together?

Dr Peta Stapleton (26:51.639)
Yeah.

Dr Peta Stapleton (27:10.976)
Yeah, I'm going to extend your three words, Megan. So you were like, eat more plants. I'm going to say eat more plants with others. Take it to five words. Eat more plants with other people. Yes, that's brilliant. And I guess, know, why we're exploring kind of this fourth wave in therapy and that's everything from mind to body to, you know, exercise to, you know, whatever, which is why I really wanted to have this conversation because

Dr Megan Lee (27:23.561)
Yeah, totally.

Dr Peta Stapleton (27:40.652)
To me, there's a whole lot of elements that come together here for people to live, but not just live a long life, but thrive. And I know you're very much an advocate of the positive psychology movement. And that really to live, you know, that kind of, you know, exceptional life, if you like, or to really feel like you're doing your purpose, these things all matter and kind of, you know, what we eat and who we eat it with and...

monitoring our own kind of, you know, mood levels, but social connectedness as part of that to me has to be part of this next wave that we're promoting in, you know, not just the therapy world, but just that figure. I mean, I'm guessing you'll totally agree with me here, but yeah.

Dr Megan Lee (28:28.521)
Yeah, I definitely do. And what's really interesting is that it has a domino effect, right? So if you wake up in the morning and you eat something healthy, that gives you energy to do more things during the day, get physical activity in. You might go for a walk with your friend and socialize more, and therefore you're out in the sun and you're getting the beautiful benefits from that morning or afternoon sun. And then you're more likely to do, like take the stairs during the day or park further away and...

It all has, they don't work solely by themselves, all these lifestyle factors that improve mental health. They work together in synergy. And then at the end of the day, after you've done all these things, you've socialized with your friends, you sleep better, and that also improves your mental health. So it's like, they're a working system. And if you change only one of those things and you can start at any one of those things, you can improve your mood.

improve your wellbeing and decrease your risk of mental health issues.

Dr Peta Stapleton (29:30.992)
And it sounds like, you know, to kind of sum it up, if someone was listening and kind of going, okay, what could I do today after listening? One, you could add more plants to whatever plate that you're sitting down and having, and that could just be extra salad on the burger, if that's what it was. But to me, I'm wondering if the next step might be to actually have a meal with someone, to actually no devices, you know, no TV or no phones, but just to sit and have a meal with someone and start to cultivate.

you know, that even if you've gone out and bought the meal together, is going to start that domino effect in your own life.

Dr Megan Lee (30:07.797)
Absolutely agree. Get rid of the uber eats, sitting by yourself, looking at a screen, lifestyle, and move more towards how they do it in the Mediterranean where they're big long tables full of food, reaching over each other, singing, dancing, like conversation, talking to each other about your day, things like that. We need to move closer to that way of living than the single plate sitting and looking at my phone.

Dr Peta Stapleton (30:09.366)
Yeah.

Dr Peta Stapleton (30:36.888)
TV dinner. That's right. Megan, this has been fantastic. We'll make sure that some of these links that we've talked about today in case people want to read some of the research are absolutely below in our notes. Obviously, I encourage everybody to follow you, particularly on Instagram. You're the Food Mood Doctor, but I'll make sure your handle is there just because of the tips that you do share and not just personal what's going on in your life and what you might be advocating for, but the research.

Dr Megan Lee (30:53.226)
Yes.

Dr Peta Stapleton (31:05.81)
and what the research is saying. And that is what ultimately results in behaviour changes, people like yourself doing those studies out there. So thank you so much for this conversation. It's been exactly what I thought we would talk about and glad from my point of view to actually hear that, yeah, what we've been seeing maybe in clinical practice for a long time, finally the research is supporting that. And obviously there's a way forward.

And it can be as simple as eat more plants, everybody. That's our motto out of today.

Dr Megan Lee (31:37.577)
So, and we're recruiting for a study. Because we know all of this wonderful thing in the science and the research and we know all of the effect sizes of depression for food. But what we really want to know and what we are really looking at exploring now is whether or not this translates into clinical significance. And we want to talk to clinicians and help mental health professionals.

Dr Peta Stapleton (31:41.728)
Yeah, fantastic, let's see.

Dr Megan Lee (32:04.893)
in a focus group style kind of sit down with eight other professionals about what is actually happening in consultation. So are people asking about nutrition? Is it ever being approached? Do you as a clinician explore these things with your clients? Because we actually don't know as scientists what is actually happening out in the field. So if anyone's interested in being involved in a focus group study, on your expert opinions on nutritional psychiatry, then we'll put my email address in the show notes as well.

Dr Peta Stapleton (32:42.564)
So if you're listening in everyone and connect with Megan, if it's obviously over and it's some point in the future in time, we might be able to actually share the outcomes of that research instead in whatever paper emerges. Because yeah, I think you're right. You know, we might train our psychology students in how to do intake interviews, but they may skim over some of that. It might require some further depth of knowledge because everyone's a little bit frightened to kind of go outside there training area. But I think we are sharing and moving more into at least acknowledging from certainly a therapy point of view that, hey, I might need someone else to actually explore this, you know, maybe a dietitian or a nutritionist or someone just to make sure there isn't something else going on to explain, you know, this person's symptoms, that kind of thing. Fantastic. We'll make sure all those details are below everyone and reach out to Megan, even if you just want to.

ask what's the latest research that has emerged in this area and we're going to say it one more time, eat more plants with other people. So love it. Thank you Megan.

Dr Megan Lee (33:47.893)
Thank you so much, Peta.

Dr Megan Lee mentioned several papers in this episode:

Is dietary quality associated with depression? An analysis of the Australian Longitudinal Study on Women’s Health data.

“It’s about What You’ve Assigned to the Salad”: Focus Group Discussions on the Relationship between Food and Mood

A randomised controlled trial of dietary improvement for adults with major depression (the 'SMILES' trial)

Association of Western and traditional diets with depression and anxiety in women

Red Meat Consumption and Mood and Anxiety Disorders

“Maybe it’s Not Just the Food?” A Food and Mood Focus Group Study

Plant-based dietary quality and depressive symptoms in Australian vegans and vegetarians: a cross-sectional study